If you are familiar with Docker, here is how you can add it to your Dockerfile.

ARG PDF2JSON_VERSION=0.71 RUN mkdir -p $HOME/pdf2json-$PDF2JSON_VERSION \ && cd $HOME/pdf2json-$PDF2JSON_VERSION \ && wget -q https://github.com/flexpaper/pdf2json/releases/download/$PDF... \ && tar xzf pdf2json-$PDF2JSON_VERSION.tar.gz \ && ./configure > /dev/null 2>&1 \ && make > /dev/null 2>&1 \ && make install > /dev/null \ && rm -Rf $HOME/pdf2json-$PDF2JSON_VERSION \ && cd

The sad thing is that the very complexity required to implement a screen reader is soley because of the technical nightmare information accessibility currently is.

It's reasonable to think that "if only" everything could be made ubiquitous and everyone (= developers) could become collectively aware of these accessibility considerations, maybe there would be a shift towards greater semanticity.

Thing is, though, that NVDA is open source, and iOS has put a built-in free screen-reader in the hands of every iPhone user... and not much has changed.

So it's basically one of those technologies forever stuck in the "initial surge of moonshot R&D to break new ground and realign status quo" phase. :(

For my part, I would love to see PDFs which can seamlessly be viewed in continuous, unpaged mode (for example, for better consumption on a small-screen device like a phone or e-reader). Even just the minimal effort required to tag page-specific header/footer type data could make a big difference here, and I expect that type of semantic information would be useful for a screen reader also.

There already is a solution, based on html and very easy to deal with: epub. Publishers are gradually shifting to it, even for things like science textbooks, as they realize that PDFs might look pretty but they're a usability nightmare. There are still some stupid things publishers do with epubs, but they'll get it right eventually; meanwhile the main text and font settings can be overridden by ereaders.

Tagged PDF is a thing, and MS Word supports it. THe problem is the very long tail of programs that generate PDFs and don't support tagged PDF. Even some widely used PDF generators, like pdflatex, don't generate tagged PDF, at least not by default.

You could also impose requirements on public companies to provide corporate documents in accessible formats- these sorts of documents are already regulated.

There's various levers that could be pulled, maybe those aren't the right ones. But you could do it.

This becomes difficult when writing Law 2 because probably you don't know all variations that can be required by Law 1 (where Law 1 is actually a long list of laws and regulations)

Depending on the legal system of a particular country writing Law 2 might not be actually feasible unless you know what Law 1 entails.

If I have a law saying that a layout needs to look like X layout and X layout is not achievable if it also needs to accessible then depending on the type of legal system you are in you can say Law Y supersedes all previous laws and requires you to make all PDFs accessible. If a legally mandated layout cannot be made accessible then the closest similar layout that still meets accessibility requirements should be used instead (long descriptions of how closest is determined in legal format would of course follow)

I think this will work in the common law system, but I don't think it would work in a Napoleonic system of law (could be wrong, just think you would need to specify exactly what laws it superseded)

As an example when I was part of the efaktura project for the Danish Government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OIOXML when the law was published mandating that all invoices to the government be sent as oioxml efaktura we ran into the problem that there was a previous law requiring that all telecommunications invoices (or maybe utility invoices, I forget) be sent with information that there was no provision for in the UBL standard that efaktura was based on.

Luckily I had introduced an extension method that we could use to put the extra data in with, but otherwise we would have had two competing laws.

As far as mandating layouts in government PDFS, you normally see that kind of thing in military documents, but laws and bureaucracies are such that there might be any number of rules and regulations that cannot be overwritten in a system by drafting an overarching accessibility bill.

Accessible PDFs are also more easily machine readable.

ISO 32000-1 (PDF 1.7) and ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0) are both compliant with PDF/UA (ISO 14289) - the standard for PDF accessibility

You could just put the original text in comments or something, wrapped in more tags to say what it is.

There may already be good tools that do this, but until it's super easy to see and "everyone" knows about it, then people won't think, "better just give it a quick look in the screenreader". Obviously a next good step to more adoption, is clear feedback about how to easily fix whatever issues the person is seeing...

HTML isn't perfect, it could be a lot better. But it goes a long way towards forcing developers to put their interface in pure text, and to do the visual layout afterwards.

I think separating content from styling has gone a long way towards improving accessibility, precisely because it makes the accessibility features less invisible. I suspect there are additional gains we could make there, and other ways that HTML could force visual interfaces to be built on top of accessible ones.

Well, they could have uploaded it to some online service that shows the document in the browser as an undownloadable but browsable thingy (I don't even know what to call that, and I am definitely not going give any publicity to the online service by spelling out the name)

It also made me late for a Teams based interview, as I foolishly tried to pass the join link between phones using this webpage, and couldn't copy it on the other end.

Same app implements seriously dark patterns to get users to install their messenger app. Said chat works in the desktop web browser but not a mobile browser. I shall never install it on my phone. Mobile presents as if you have pending messages even when you don't (inbox empty on the web version).

everything is on facebook instead of the real interent, personal pet peeve...

With tagged PDF it's easy to get the text out.

There is a POC package for producing Tagged PDF here https://github.com/AndyClifton/accessibility but it's not a complete solution yet.

Here is an excellent review article that talks about all the other options for producing Tagged PDFs from LaTeX (spoiler — there is no solution currently): https://umij.wordpress.com/2016/08/11/the-sad-state-of-pdf-a... via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24444427

https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/pdfa/#3

As in Healthcare.

A flattened XFA/XDP PDF (no interactive elements) is more or less a PDF/A.

People will disabilities that rely on screen-readers don't love it. There is no such a problem with HTML/CSS which should be the norm for internet documents.

> With PDF, everyone sees the same thing.

Yes, provided you can see at first place...

It should be. But meanwhile everybody seems to think it is perfectly ok that there is a bunch of JavaScript that needs to run before the document will display any text at all and how that text makes it into the document is anybody's guess.

My bashful take is that nobody told the rest of the web development world that they aren't Facebook, and they don't need Facebook like technology. So everyone is serving React apps hosted on AWS microservices filled in by GraphQL requests in order to render you a blog article.

I am being hyperbolic of course, but I was taken completely off guard by how quickly we ditched years of best practices in favour of a few JS UI libraries.

And as a format, it's much more sane than, say, Word or Excel.

Even if the focus on "where do I put this glyph" means the original text isn't in there by default.

FWIW this is not a technical barrier; it would be absolutely trivial to associated blocks of non-flowed text with the layed out text.

Why would I want document type that can't even refloat on display size to represent any longer written text that is supposed to be consumed on digital device?

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/Im...

You like it for that very quality: immutable, reproducible rendering.

Those who have to extract data from PDFs face nearly the same problem as those who have to deal with paper scans: no reliable structure in the data, the source of truth is the optical recognition, by human or by machine.

"Because it's pretty" is it. 99% of people don't care about text being a data mining source.

I do wish they had focused a bit more on non-visual aspects such as screen-reader data, but to say the whole point is "because it's pretty" is a bit uncharitable. The format doesn't solve the problem you wish it solved, but it does solve a problem other than making things "pretty."

I quite like PDFs, but this thread has been an eye-opener.

I agree, I do too (LibreOffice), but for the opposite reason. Even internally, the font rendering in LibreOffice with many fonts is often quite bad. This is especially noticeable for text inside graphs in Calc.

If I'm going to read something lengthy that's a LibreOffice document, I open it (in LibreOffice), and export it to a PDF. LibreOffice consistently exports beautiful PDFs (and SVG graphs), which tells me that it "knows" internally how to correctly render fonts, just that its actual renderer is quite bad.

The other thing that is unfair is assholes who deliver tabular data in PDF format usually don’t want you to have it. When your county clerk prints a report, photocopies it 30 times, crumples it and scans to PDF without OCR, that’s not a file format issue.

I sometimes see people complain about how PDF sucks because it doesn't look quite the same everywhere (namely, non-Adobe readers), but if you're not doing anything fancy is pretty much does. It is, at minimum, more reliable than any other "open" format I'm aware of, save actual images.

I know something about that area. Today, perhaps a 10th of CVs are sorted and prescreened by software. That fraction will only increase.

SVG does that too, but it can also have aria tags to improve accessibility and have text that can be extracted much more easily.

Mostly. I've seen issues where PDF looked fine on a Mac but not on Windows.

Also, the fact that you see the same thing everywhere is good if you have one context of looking at things - e.g. if everyone uses big screen or if everyone prints the document, that's fine. But reading PDFs on e-book readers or smartphones can be a nightmare.

There are two issues with parsing them however.

  1) PDF is an output format and was never intended to have the display text be parseable.
  2) PDF is PostScript++, which means that is is a programming language.
     This means that a PDF is also an input description to the output that we
     are all familiar with seeing on a page.

The big change that came with PDF was removing the programming capabilities. A PDF file is like an unrolled version of the same PostScript file. There is still a residue of PostScript left but in no way can it be described as a programming language.

Quartz! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_(graphics_layer)#Use_of...

Why should they all see the same thing?

Using PDF here is self serving. It’s actively user-hostile.

Nothing is more annoying than having to manual search a document that has been exported from PDF and have to make sure you catch all the now incorrect spellings when all the ligatures have just disappeared "action" -> "ac on", "finish" -> " nish".

As far as I understand, PDFs can be generated such that ligatures can be correctly cut'n'pasted from most PDF readers. I have seen PDFs where ligatures in links (ending in ”.fi”) cause problems, and I believe that's just an incorrectly generated PDF; ligatures done wrong.

Considering that PDF a programming language designed to draw stuff on paper, going backwards from the program back to clean data is not something that one should expect to always work.

This is assuming you cleaning up the output of `pdftotext` which in my experience is the best command line tool for extracting plain text.

I play (tabletop) RPGs online, we use a simple, free rule system (Tiny Six) and any time that I have to copypaste a specific paragraph of the rules in chat I always discover that there are missing characters (so I have to reread the block and fix it, ... in the end it would be faster to just read it aloud in voice).

Same might happen with scene or room descriptions taken from modules etc.

My company uses the services of, and has some sort of partnership with, a company that makes it's business out of parsing CVs.

Recently we've seen a surge in CVs that after parsing return no name and / or no email, or the wrong data is being fetched (usually, from referees).

So, out of curiosity I took one (So far) pdf and extracted the text with python.

Besides the usual stuff that is already known (As in, the text is extracted as found, e.g., if you have 2 columns the lines of text will appear after the line at the same level in the document that is in the other column) what I found - obviously take this with a grain of salt as this is all anecdotally so far - is that some parts of the document have spaces between the characters, e.g.:

D O N A L D T R U M P

P r e s i d e n t o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s o f A m e r i c a

These CVs have the characteristics to be highly graphical. Also anecdotally, the metadata in the CV I parsed stated it was from Canvas [1]

https://www.canva.com/templates/EAD7WY_6Ncs-navy-blue-and-bl...

Consider that creating a PDF is generally just the layout software rendering into a PDF context — no different as far as it is concerned than rendering to the screen.

Space are not necessary for display (although they might help for text selection so often are present). It is not important that headers are drawn first, or footers last — so often these scraps of text will appear in unexpected places....

PDF has support for screen readers, but of course very few PDFs in the wild were created with this extra feature.

This means getting text out of PDFs requires rather sophisticated computational geometry and machine learning algorithms and is an active area of research. And yet, even after all that, it will always be the case that a fair few words end up mangled because trying to infer words, word order, sentences and paragraphs from glyph locations and size is currently not feasible in general.

Even if better authoring tools were to be released, it would still take a long time for these tools to percolate and then for the bulk of encountered material to have good accessibility.

This recent hn post is relevant: https://umij.wordpress.com/2016/08/11/the-sad-state-of-pdf-a...

The use-case is basically one where there is a tabular PDF uploaded every week and the script parses it to extract the data. Thereafter a human interacts with the data. In such a scenario, every ~100 parses it fails and I'll have to patch the parser.

Sometimes text gets split up, but as long as the parent DOM node is consistent I can pull the text of the entire node and it seems to work fine.

PDF is being used wrongly. For information exchange, data should be AUTHORED in a parseable format with a schema.

Then PDF should be generated from this as a target format.

There is a solution: xml, xsl-fo.

   > There is a solution: xml, xsl-fo.

Meanwhile, pdf just worked-- until you the first time you crack it open and see what's inside the pdf file. I'll never forget the horror after I committed to a time-critical project where I claimed... "Oh, I'll just extract data from the PDF, how bad could it possibly be!"

Bad programmers, as usual, frustrated by their own badness.

Today's coders want us to use Jackson Pollock Object Notation everywhere for everything.

> We ain't ever going back.

Not so, friend. ODF and DOCX are XML. And these formats won't become JPON anytime soon.

I've also seen a similar situation, but in some ways quite the opposite --- where all the text was simply vector graphics. In the limited time I had, OCR worked quite well, but I wonder if it would've been faster to recognise the vector shapes directly rather than going through a rasterisation and then traditional bitmap OCR.

The advantage is that PDFs become accessible immediately as opposed to the day all PDF creators would agree on a better presentation.

Example: A layout dataset - https://github.com/ibm-aur-nlp/PubLayNet

and: SoundGlance: Briefing the Glanceable Cues of Web Pages for Screen Reader Users http://library.usc.edu.ph/ACM/CHI2019/2exabs/LBW1821.pdf

A related problem is invoice/receipt/menu/form information extraction. Also, image based ad filtering.

Does anyone know of any attempt at this?

Blah blah blah transformer something BERT handwave handwave. I should ask the research folks. :-)

And on top of this many times there are no text data in the PDF just a JBIG2 image per page.

Imagine that instead of parsing a PDF invoice, you just extract the SQLite file embedded in it, and it has a nice schema with invoice headers, details, customer details, etc.

Anything else in PDF would work nicely either - vector graphics, long texts, forms - all can be embedded as an SQLite file in a PDF.

I think a good interview question would be, given a list of full names, return each person’s first name. It’s a great little problem where you can show meaningful progress in less than a minute, but you could also work on it full time for decades.

You see exactly this kind of probabilistic algorithm being used every day in huge production apps. E.g. how do you think Gmail shows something like "me .. Vince, Tim" in the left column of your email inbox?

The problem with probabilistic algorithms is that you trade predictability for getting it right more frequently (but not 100% of the time). Eg. I could match common Japanese family names or look for a .jp TLD, but neither of these are guarantees that the family name comes first, and even less does their absence imply that they lead with the first name.

I imagine Google's algorithm is no more sophisticated than:

1. Are they in your contacts? Use their first name from your contacts. 2. Are they a Google user with a profile you can view? Use the first name they provided. 3. Use your locale to make a wild guess.

I still haven’t found a good way of paragraph detection. Court filings are double spaced, and the white space between paragraphs is the same as the white space between lines of text. I also can’t use tab characters because of chapter headings and lists which don’t start with a <tab>. I was hoping to get some help from anyone who has done it before.

The core is tabula-java, and there are bindings for R in tabulizer, Node.js in tabula-js, and Python in tabula-py.

My other complaint with Tabula is total lack of metadata. It’s impossible to know even what page of the PDF the tables are located on! You either have to extract one page at a time or you just get a data frame with no idea which table is located on which page.

Both are better than Tabula though.

[1] https://github.com/camelot-dev/camelot/wiki/Comparison-with-...

"The sad state of PDF-Accessibility of LaTex Documents"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24444427

PDF's have accessibility features to make semantic text extraction easy... but it depends on the PDF creator to make it happen. It's crazy how best-case PDF's have identifiable text sections like headings... but worst-case is gibberish remapped characters or just bitmap scans...

This article does make me wonder though if we'll ever get to a point where OCR tech is sufficiently accurate and efficient that screen readers will start incorporating OCR in some form.

Any lawyers here able to comment on whether that would be a DMCA violation?

The GPU approach is considerably harder to work around, fwiw. Still possible, of course.

Even if DRM on video output becomes common(HDMI has them unlike VGA), Ultimately video protocols have to emit analog signal they will have to render to photons your eye can see, CAM rippers use this. It will be possible always to decode.[1] [2]

[1] Until neuralink kind of tech becomes mainstream and every content owner requires the interface to consume the content, and the interface can biologically authenticate the user .

[2] They can trace a CAM ripper, basis unique IDs embedded watermark etc, but they can never "stop" them from actually ripping, they can only block/penalize the legal source the rip originated from.

I recall being very impressed when I first saw the OCR in the Google Translate mobile app, and that was about 6 years ago.

I'm asking because I don't think the problem is with PDF itself as much as it is with certain PDF output programs.

It felt dirty.

http://www.tobias-elze.de/pdfsandwich/

http://www.konfuzio.com

Disclaimer: I am the co-founder of Konfuzio, a start-up founded in 2016 based in Germany.

The weirdest one? an application where the PCL code points used the EBCDIC character set. For once, being an old-timer helped.

did you write the column one after another (first all left, then all right) or going left right line of text then top down?

And it worked ok in some viewers, but not others.

Why not looking for stretches characters with spaces between them, then concatenate, check against a dictionary and if a match is found, remove the spaces.

> “On_April_7,_2013,_the_competent_authorities”

Same here.

If it's supposed to be a somewhat final result, ran against a dataset you have little control over (people sending you PDFs they made, vs. PDFs coming from a know automated generator) you'll hit all the other not so edge cases very fast.

Like, otherwise invisible characters inserted in the middle of your text, layout that makes no logical sense and puts the text in a weird order but was fine when it was displayed on the page, characters missing because of weird typographic optimization (ligatures, characters only in specific embeded fonts etc.). Basically everything in the article is pretty easy to find in the wild.

* Please fill out this series of forms on our website detailing your education and job history.

* Congrats, you have been selected for phone screening! Please be prepared to discuss your education and job history with the recruiter.

:'(

At some point I need to port PdfTextStripper from PDFBox, it seems to be among the most reliable libraries for extracting text in a generic way.

Click print, copy all you want in the print preview window. Brilliant protection scheme.

There are drawbacks. Particularly at scale.

For small one-off tasks the cloud solutions do fine.

See also this previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20470439

It's not at all obvious how to make this work - there is a lot of human judgement involved in judging what a header is vs what are values, especially with merged header column/row columns.

Sorry, I was not trying to say deep learning would be a substitute for all such issues, just that new approaches may help a smaller team build those tools more efficiently.

I don't know if Abbyy combines its layout tool with training a model for customers, but it seems like a reasonable thing to build and expose.

God what horrible mess it is. They are right about OCR being the best approach sometimes, but then there is tables. Tables in PDFs are.. well there is active academic research into the best way to extracting data.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24112836

All other use cases of PDF are better served by other formats.

If that were the case, we would all be using PDF/A, or better still a subset of that. The fact that PDF has much more stuff in the spec than that suggests that a large number of people find PDF to be the best format for what they're trying to do.

Or they just don't know any better. I could certainly see this being the case for many office workers.

More clarification of what I mean, in the form of a dangerous conversation:

OfficeCorp Exec: Hey adobe, you know what would be great! Fillable form fields! And dynamic stuff!.

Adobe Sales: Great! Wonderful feedback, we can do it!

Edit: Fix tone. Or try to. Maybe I'm just overthinking what I say?

Compare it to XPS to see what it should have been.

Given that PDFs support fillable forms, scripts, video, 3D objects; it is a massive error that at no point did anyone think to have some plain text equivalent field or something like that. It would be pretty darn simple for most generating applications to produce one of those.

Yes, I know it was largely meant as a preprint/graphics format, but clearly it hasn't been just that for a long time.