Holy shit, this is frigging cool. Python is my language of choice and I'm amazed at the result here. Wow, even the socket implementation works.Python 3.6.14+ (Actually Portable Python) [GCC 9.2.0] on cosmo Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>: print("hello world")
hello world >>: import asyncio
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'asyncio' >>: import socket >>: s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM) >>: s.connect(("www.google.com", 80)) >>: s <socket.socket fd=3, family=AddressFamily.AF_INET, type=SocketKind.SOCK_STREAM, proto=0, laddr=('192.168.21.19', 63468), raddr=('142.250.70.196', 80)> This work is going to be of interest to a lot of Python devs! Edit: here's the link to the file: https://justine.lol/ftrace/python.com Download it and see if it will run on your OS. I'm getting the standard prompt on every OS so far. On Windows you just type python.com. On Mac OS X I had to chmod +x, allow it in security settings, and use bash -c './hello.com' to execute it. Simple chmod +x python.com; ./python.com on Linux.
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...in addition, on my ARM Mac I had to start the program like this, otherwise there's an "exec format error": arch -x86_64 ./python.com
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the APE format and cosmo libc provide operating system portability, not instruction set portability.
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Does this mean I can build portable Python applications like I do with Go without having to worry about the glibc version on the running machine in case I had used CGO?
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Another benefit of cosmo compiled apps is debugging. I won't get into pledge/unveil but check this out:On my compiled python.com I try to open an app with a socket already in use: ./o/third_party/python/python.com run.py --strace SYS 15995 443'293'703 read(3, [u"egister(self, selectors.EVENT_READ)◙◙ "...], 8'192) → 8'192
SYS 15995 443'440'589 close(3) → 0
self.socket.bind(self.server_address)
SYS 15995 443'471'588 write(2, u" self.socket.bind(self.server_address"..., 42) → 42
OSError: [Errno 98] EADDRINUSE/98/Address already in use
SYS 15995 443'523'517 write(2, u"OSError: [Errno 98] EADDRINUSE/98 /Addres"..., 57) → 57
SYS 15995 443'533'391 getenv("PYTHONINSPECT") → NULL
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Could you clarify how this is better than what you can get with strace without using Cosmopolitan Libc? Or is it just that it's "built in"?
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Just that it is built in I guess, and that cosmo libc places special attention to allowing you to use gdb/strace/memzoom and other debugging tools.
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What's python.com, and what does "python.com APE" mean? Is python.com an executable that runs on multiple OSs? Also why is the flask demo so slow?I think some explanations might be helpful. I'm familiar with python, but not cosmopolitan libc.
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Cosmopolitan Libc allows you to build programs that run on six operating systems (Linux, Mac, Windows, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD). I ported Python 2.7.18 and 3.6.14 to build on Cosmopolitan Libc because I wanted to have the same Python executable and my scripts with me everywhere :) I've updated the blog post for context.The flask demo is unnaturally slow because my old computer is slow (running python tests in the background). plus I was using _dummy_thread Python3.6's pure-python threads implementation.
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Thanks for the info, Cosmopolitan Libc looks like a cool project.
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APE is for αcτµαlly pδrταblε εxεcµταblε [0], a kind of executable bundle that runs from the exact same file on Linux, MacOS, Windows, DOS, BSD, etc.Cosmopolitan is a libc for that bundle [1], so that you can write your C code just the once, and then you have just the one output executable. No download-per-platform, or that's the goal. [0] https://justine.lol/ape.html [1] https://justine.lol/cosmopolitan/index.html
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It's a nitpick but I wish everyone stopped spelling it like that and call it Actually Portable Executable at least. That kind of spelling really messes up with my reading comprehension, and I think it does for many people.
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No inside knowledge here but I figured Justine intends it as a shibboleth.I use a magic string somewhere, which has control codes, three ASCII digits for versioning, and an RTL UTF-8 character, and is exactly eight bytes wide. Anything munges my file, I'll know. Meanwhile I can just mask it.
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> No inside knowledge here but I figured Justine intends it as a shibboleth.I would not call it a shibboleth, but vague, generic terms are known to be for most purposes unsearchable, and having a really unique string identifier for your thing could make it more valuable. It reminds me of this other HN link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32241020
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That's not really what a shibboleth is...
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Obviously we're from different tribes because clearly you're wrong, and I'm compelled to cut your throat and throw you in the Jordan river. I think. Been awhile since I've reviewed the source material.
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It's a shibboleth for knowing who the author is, you could say.
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Surely we should transliterate it as “actmally pdrtable ekhecmtable”?
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My screen reader doesn't pronounce it the way you'd expect, because it's not using Greek characters the way they should be, but it is the name. Transliterating it, is as wrong as using the original, but the author prefers the original, so that one wins out.
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Terrible for screen readers too I'd assume. But maybe I'm underestimating their abilities.
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Screen readers can surely handle Greek just fine, the only problem with the given spelling is that it uses "lookalike" glyphs instead of corresponding characters from the Greek alphabet (eg. use of "mu"/µ for "u").Of course, I am sure some screen readers will simply take a custom text preprocessor that will turn l337sp34k and similar spellings like this one into regular text, but I am certain none of them have it as the default.
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Well, αcτµαlly pδrταblε εxεcµταblε is what the author calls it. I appreciate it when people respect author's choice of naming. If I had a wish, it would be for the author to change the name.
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The Greek delta being used as a "o" irks me a bit too, because to me it looks very much like a consonant, but I make a one-off exception for this project.
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Or Actmally pdrtable execmtable, at least.
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Probably bad for SEO too.
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SEO has become such a tainted word that clearly it cannot be used anymore to shorten "Making something useful easy to find in search engines by anyone who might be interested" - people think anything mentioning SEO is from narcissists or scam artists, and downvote.What other term would people suggest then? Surely it's a real concern for projects to be easily accessible by people looking for them.
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APE stands for Actually Portable Executable, an executable file that can run on the major platforms unmodified (windows/linux/mac/etc.)
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Yeah “python.com” is an atrocious name for a program. Like seriously wtf.
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Why would you say that?DOS .COM programs were pure maching language programs with no OS-specifics like headers or syscalls (though running in real mode, they did expect BIOS interrupts), so that makes sense to me: they are trivially portable. The most famous one was COMMAND.COM.
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I say that because "python.com" looks like a URL. DOS was a loooong time ago (I used it in my youth) and well out of the memory of most internet users today. So instead they see "python.com" and think it's a web address. And while I thought it would direct you to a website about python, you know where that address goes? To a website that has something to do with creating your own camsite. Yeah... that kind of camsite.And then, it's bad because a user trying to search for it using the universal search/URL bar in their browser can't just type that in and hit enter to search for it, they have to manually select that they want to search for it, or else they go to the site about starting your own camsite. AND THEN... once they have googled for it... none of the results on the first page have anything to do with this program as far as I can tell. So yeah, weird, obscure, confusing branding that makes the program hard to search for. EDIT: I could be missing something? Does this program have a different name and python.com is solely the file name of the executable or whatever? It still seems like it could be more descriptively named.
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Yeah, I was aware most would take it as a domain name, but we _are_ on HackerNews, and I think .COM is still an applicable executable extension on Windows. As such, it strikes me as a decent name (when looked at independently).But ouch, I haven't looked where python.com might be pointing to today, so that's indeed unfortunate. As for search results, I think the most obvious candidate for bad naming is... the Go language. ;-) Btw, this is part of the Cosmopolitan (referenced multiplatform libc implementation) monorepo, and only lives in the third_party/python directory. I am not sure if it's customary to name Cosmopolitan-linked binaries with a ".com" extension (perhaps it also alludes to the name "Cosmopolitan", but I guess then it'd be "cosm" or "cosmo"), but it definitely does not seem to be a public name you'd search for. Searching for "python.com" (in quotes) on Kagi or Google returns a bunch of Python-related .com domains, whereas searching for "Actually Portable Python" returns the above site as the first hit — that's the name one should be looking under for this. Though I am sure it'd be nice if a more generic "multi-platform Python binary" also matched some of this (though platforms sometimes mean architectures as well).
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I was confused by this naming scheme and I am an (allegedly) seasoned software engineer of the DOS era (team 6.11a).Reading these comments about why it's named python.COM, yes that's pretty clever but it didn't even occur to me when I first read the post and I suspect the majority of people on hackernews had the same impression. Go is definitely also bad naming, but the domain is golang.org and the canonical search term for the Go programming language is "golang". In this day and age, we should probably be optimizing for clarity and searchability instead of "clever use of an outdated tech naming" which half of the engineers nowadays wouldn't even know about.
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Oh, this is just my guess why it's named .COM: I have no idea if any of it is true, and I am in no way related to the project!I am not disagreeing on the clarity and naming, but in this case, I don't think it's a big deal at all.
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It's named .com because it's a flat executable format. If you map it into memory and start executing at the first byte (MZ which means JG +69) then it'll just work.
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Thanks for confirming my guess! Nice work on getting the conpatibility layers for sys interfaces done as well!
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Not that google is super case sensitive, but maybe it could be stylized as python.COM to emphasize the DOS roots.
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I agree with you. I had the same sentiment while reading the site.
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If you are looking for a multi platform build of a specific version of python built with an obscure libc for some niche use case it's _very_ likely none of that is an issue for you, at all.This is a non issue.
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Because you are posting on news.ycombinator.com? It might have been a sensible name 30 years ago, but now?
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I would say .com extension as an indication of an executable is acceptable exactly because we are on HackerNews (and not W3Schools.com, for instance). Basically, IMHO, "hackers" are supposed to know a bit of (arcane) history as well: "hacking", to me, presumes a deeper investment in the field. Otherwise, they might only be (web) software developers (or engineers).But to each their own. (I think the most unfortunate thing is what content is present on the python.com domain, as a sibling comment highlighted)
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It's nothing that hasn't happened in Blade Runner. Watch her take the pleasure from the serpent that once corrupted man.
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But it's precisely not that, it's a polyglot.And how is headerless raw assembly that expects the bios interrupts to be usable "trivially portable"? If it was, it would run on modern amd64 OSs without emulation, but it doesn't.
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COM "format" is "trivially" portable for a limited subset of functionality where you don't interface with the rest of the system except possibly memory (I think .o files produced by GCC compiler are very close to pure machine instructions too, before they get massaged into an ELF file with ld): in the sense that you can wrap them in a function and just execute them on the same architecture.The fact that system interfaces like BIOS interrupts may or may not work is insignificant when you start thinking of it as only a playful name. And let me repeat a word of warning: this is only my guess, I am unrelated to the project.
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python.exe is the only other option to fulfill the Actually Portable requirement on Windows.Thing is, an APE is a COM file, not an EXE. Different headers, which contemporary Windows no longer cares about; but why lie about it? python.com is in COM format, as far as Windows is concerned. Added for clarity: 'no longer cares about' meaning, Windows loads executables by checking the header for COM or EXE format and behaving accordingly, it's which of the two valid extensions gets used which it no longer cares about.
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Just to clarify, APE is both an EXE and a COM file. The COM file format is basically just flat executable code. The only thing you need to do, to be a legal .com file, is if the program is loaded and execution starts from the first byte -- it works. APE meets that requirement for Linux and bare metal. It uses a polyglot to tell if the processor is running in real mode or long mode within its DOS stub. https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/blob/066ed2b2b229dce4d1... APE is also a legal EXE file because it has the MZ header. However... I thought it'd be more cool to signal as a DOS binary than to signal as a Windows binary, since signalling as the latter would probably be a turnoff for the Mac/Linux/BSD crowds, who are also supported by APE.
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The base name of the file must be “python” and nothing else? This is where I thought more description could be used.
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APE is cool, but other than it being a bar trick I fail to see much usage out of it. Especially in case of an interpreter - like, just have the native version installed on the target OS.
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> just have the native version installed on the target OSthis is literally the problem
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How is it the solution?End user applications, sure… but the raw python interpreter? If you want it, you have to install it. If you want to install it, you go to python.org and install it. This solves… a headache for the maintainers, having to build multiple packages? Not having it installed is definitely not solved by this. Bundling python packages into a single binary is definitely not solved by this.
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> End user applications, sure… but the raw python interpreter? If you want it, you have to install it. If you want to install it, you go to python.org and install it.If you want just the raw python interpreter, you're not the end user? > Not having it installed is definitely not solved by this. But not having to install it is the point? > Bundling python packages into a single binary is definitely not solved by this. It is? There's even a working example in the article? mkdir -p Lib/site-packages
# specify python version to pip if necessary
/usr/bin/python2 -m pip download flask -t .
# start "build"
cp ./python.com ./my-release.com
printf '%sn' '-m' >./.args
printf '%sn' 'my_module_name' >>./.args
# wheels are just ZIPs, use unzip if pip complains
./python.com -m pip install flask*.whl -t ./Lib/site-packages
./zip.com -qr ./my-release.com ./Lib/site-packages/
./zip.com ./my-release.com ./.args
# optional cleanup
rm -rf ./*.whl ./Lib/site-packages/
./my-release.com
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You don't understand how the packaging of python applications works if you think the efforts of PyInstaller, py2exe, Nuitka, etc. can be this trivially overcome.This makes what is already a pain in the ass (packing a python app into a single native distribution) harder to do, for the 'cute' ability to have a single cross platform binary. ...and it is cute. Sure, I get it. ...but yeah, you just zip up all the python dependencies and it's fine? So good. Compile all the native parts or whatever, I'm sure it's easy. Look, I tell you what, you go and prove that all the smart people who've been trying to solve this for the last 10 years that there's a new good way of doing it, and they (and I) will all be very happy. Until then, this is a proof of concept for a trivial use case that makes packaging a trivial pure python application somewhat harder to do than it was already. > It is? It is not. Bundling python applications into a native binary is already a badly-solved problem with a bunch of irritating problems and caveats; this doesn't add anything meaningful to those existing efforts or fix any of the issues they have. Seriously; go and look at the efforts those projects go to, to make what they do, work.
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it isn't the solution, but it is a solution. it might be the solution for a particular subset of tools, which is still great, because it usually was a PITA even for those constrained use cases.
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Why is it just a bar trick in your mind?Do you not consider the end-user not having to install anything useful? The entire point of APE is the portability, hence the name.
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The OS-specific interpreter can be bundled with the application itself, and then no need to install anything (though ideally a package manager would do its job and resolve dependencies beforehand, making it moot. This windows-style random exe hunting and downloading should just die already. And it doesn’t have to be “installed”, nix solves this problem by nix-shell -p package “installing” the package temporarily, making it available in the shell only.)
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> The OS-specific interpreter can be bundled with the application itselfWhy does the interpreter need to be OS-specific at runtime? If you're "bundled with the application itself", and your application is OS-specific anyways, then you should of course bundle a optimized OS-specific interpreter. But, for an actually portable application, that runs on several OSes, you probably want an actually portable interpreter? > And it doesn’t have to be “installed”, nix solves this problem by nix-shell -p package “installing” the package temporarily, making it available in the shell only.) nix-shell -p package is a very bad example of your point.
* It represents a "not bundled"/"not embedded" use case; * You "just" need to install Nix, then; * You "just" need to invoke Nix using the correct derivation, then; * Nix "just" need to temporary install the native interpreter and all other dependencies specified in the derivation, then; * Nix "just" need to temporary install your packages and all other dependencies specified in the derivation in a temporary location. all in order to not need to have it to not be installed. Even as someone that likes Nix, this doesn't make a lot of sense for the sake of argument.
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Then you either need a package manager (Windows users without Scoop or Chocolately are out, destroying portability) or you need to provide multiple binaries that the user chooses for different platforms with the interpreter bundled as you said.But the availability of other options with tradeoffs doesn't answer my question as to why this method is just a bar trick. A Go binary or similar is an option, but it doesn't make other options mute.
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There are definitely real uses for this is this got traction and wide adoption and developed into a robust product - for example, games would just work on Linux or windows without the need for specialized drivers for either, since Nvidia would just write the drivers and compile them with this which would make them effectively multi OS, followed by all game engines targeting these drivers, and so on.However to wish for that to happen on the same level as wishing that Linux was the dominant OS for personal computers, which would render APE mostly moot except for a few specialized cases.
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How do you imagine the drivers would just run on any OS, talking to the kernel in a very very kernel-specific way? This is just a hack in the respective executable file format headers (a genius hack nonetheless from Justine), but it only works for very very basic things. Anything higher level is highly OS-specific.
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>This is just a hack in the respective executable file format headers (a genius hack nonetheless from Justine)Its a lot more then that. Look at the code. https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan
You compile an executable with flags --nostdlib and --nostdinc because it includes cross platform standard libraries mapped to the OS specific magic numbers for system calls. Think about a desktop computer with a graphics card. You can install either windows or linux on it. In both cases stuff gets rendered to the screen using the graphics cards. That is done through the driver, which maps higher level commands in libraries to instructions that graphics cards understands. While library format, is OS specific, the driver is essentially doing either ioctls or memory mapped io, both of which are the same x64 instructions. So compiling everything with APE, means that library entry points are platform agnostic, and everything up the chain all the way to the game engine. And, yes cosmopolitan only works on very basic things, as would be expected by the small number of people developing it, thats why I said IF it was adopted widely and developed further it would be possible.
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> That is done through the driver, which maps higher level commands in libraries to instructions that graphics cards understandsWhich is a very highly privileged thing to do, that you can’t just circumvent. No mainstream OS does userspace drivers. And honestly, now you just introduce two levels of abstraction - one at the APE level, and one at Python’s level, so I don’t get that. Also, that’s why we have cross-platform libraries. The executable-header is hardly the “bottleneck” in cross-platform tooling - that’s why I think it is hardly more than a very cool and genius hack.
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You can do quite a lot with redbean, I wouldn't call it very very basic.But agreed graphical use cases are limited.
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AFAIK the idea behind 'actually portable executables' only works for POSIX-style command line programs. As soon as system-level DLLs (like OpenGL/X11/XGL or D3D11/DXGI) need to be accessed the problem becomes a lot more complicated (solving this problem would be massive though).
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This is awesome!I like the idea of combining this with pyScript to create portable “GUI” apps. Use this for a local server, open the users browser and point it at it. Websockets/pickle to bridge to a UI written in pyScript. Does cosmopolitan have an API to open the users default browser? I know Python itself does… https://pyscript.net/
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Nice idea! IIRC redbean has the LaunchBrowser function (https://redbean.dev/2.0.html#LaunchBrowser) to open the user's default browser, and the cosmo module in Python is exactly for providing Cosmopolitan Libc goodies via a Python API. You can probably copy some of the LaunchBrowser code into third_party/python/Python/cosmomodule.c and implement the feature you're looking for. Submit a PR :)
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Python's biggest issue - distribution - solved without any containerization.once this gets threads, TLS and a recent Python version, I can see it becoming a non-toy fast. well done!
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Follow the Cosmopolitan Libc project (also consider supporting and/or contributing to it), these things are on track to happen soon :)TLS will probably happen first -- Cosmopolitan already has mbedTLS for redbean, so a modified _ssl.c should get us most of the way there. Recent Python versions ... what version is Python on right now? 3.10? (3.11 apparently) I picked 3.6 at the time because Cosmopolitan Libc did not have threads then (it does now, pthreads API is being filled as of this writing), and also because it wouldn't have too much churn. Perhaps after 3.11 gets stable I'll port it to use Cosmopolitan Libc.
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a release pipeline for 3.11 would set the project up nicely for 3-5 years at least! definitely post it on HN if you get it working.
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When people complain about Python distribution, having to download different binaries for different operating systems is almost never part of the complaint. So, the problem has been “solved” by pyinstaller and co. ages ago.Any problems still haunting pyinstaller and co. at this point will also show up for APEs, and solving them when you only have a lowest common denominator toolset at disposal will be harder. I like APEs btw.
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I got interested in APEs because I got lost in DLL hell a few times with PyInstaller lol. IMO PyInstaller is pretty cool, but a bit overkill sometimes. At present I find APE Python a perfect match for one big use case (a bunch of my thrown-together shell utilities I can take and use everywhere).Like after I wrote this blog post, I wrote a small Python app using Flask/SQLite/D3.js, put everything in a single file, just copied it onto computers with Debian/Fedora/FreeBSD/Win10, and now I just access the info I need on those systems via the browser. Providing a browser GUI makes it easier for my colleagues as well, some of whom don't use terminals at all :) For C extensions (where I've stubbed my toes quite a bit with PyInstaller), I think a nice goal with APE Python would be to have a website like Christoph Gohlke's (https://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/), where you just select the packages you would like, and you download them compiled as a single-file executable you can use anywhere. This is an interesting problem, and there's been some work towards solving it, let's see if we can have an elegant solution.
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> When people complain about Python distribution, having to download different binaries for different operating systems is almost never part of the complaint.Have you done a study? This reminds me of when I've seen people say things like, "X is a showstopper for me when it comes to C++ [or whatever]", and someone responds, "That's not a problem in practice. People who write C++ don't care about X". And it's like, "Well, yeah, that's the nature of 'showstoppers'—all the people who do care about X noped out a long time ago." It's an intellectually dishonest way to justify choosing not to confront the X problem.
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If I understand it correctly this is only a distribution of Python itself, not third party libraries or user code. So it only solves an insignificant part of Python's distribution issues.
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It's solved by using Go, 6 years ago.
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mostly yes. there's the slight problem of Go not being Python, though.
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Go builds a single binary for both Linux, Windows and osx?
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It doesn’t need to. It can build optimised binaries for all three.
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it builds single binaries even for other processors like arm, arm64.
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One of us is confused, and it very well might be me and GP, but I thought that Go can cross-compile to other platforms (different OS and arch combinations), but cannot produce (at least by default?) a single binary that can run on multiple platforms, like this article does.
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Yeah Go does not do that. I don't think any lang doesI think it's pretty much a unique feature of APE, because APE binaries modify their own code after the first run to nativize themselves. (Right? Or do the new versions work different?) I can't tell if my disdain for this is real (Since I really like having my exes read-only and having a consistent hash) or just sublimated envy (Since most desktops will in practice have every file marked as read-write, and if it works it's not stupid)
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or even Nim if you prefer Pythonic syntax with the same portability.
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Wow, an αcτµαlly pδrταblε snαkε. Jart needs to slow down producing so many good hacks -- it's putting the rest of us to shame!
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I'm truely impressed. I don't know if this will become useful in real software, because you'll likely have dependencies (which in turn depend on OS features) pretty fast. But nevertheless, one of the coolest projects out there!
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Any use of OS features by calling functions in the standard library should work though, right?I think it's only dependencies that contain C code that would need further changes. I think you would have to recompile then with cosmopolitan libc.
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I'm thinking this python.com file would be so, so useful for DevOs / admin tasks. Use it as a lightweight binary to run Python scripts for all platforms. Would probably be very useful for setup / installation scripts or install commands.
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Yup, this is one big reason why I wanted Python to be Actually Portable -- I have a bunch of tiny scripts that are slightly complex for sh (some of them were Windows CMD .BAT files lol) which I like to use everywhere. By building Python with Cosmopolitan Libc, I can take a single binary and my scripts with me! I just add my scripts into the APE ZIP store via zip -r ./python.com ./.python/*.py and it just works. I only have VMs now, but a while ago I had Debian 10/Fedora 35/Windows 10/FreeBSD 13 all on the same network, and it was super convenient to have the same script/executable work everywhere.
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Hey, I am a JS dev and don't know a lot about python. Can someone ELI5 what is going on here? Thanks.
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The author compiled the Python interpreter as an Actually Portable Executable (APE) file.APE files (usually using a .com extension) are single executable files that can be run natively on many major operating systems. Kind of a "polyglot" executable file that most major operating systems just understand natively. The implication is that you can now package Python code as a single file that can be directly run regardless of the operating system the user is on. No installers, no dependencies on what must already be installed, no separate downloads for different operating systems. Just one single file, click and run.
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I think what is happening here is that the python interpreter can be used as an executable. This way you don't have to install python on the host machine and can carry your programs on a USB stick for example.Correct me if I'm wrong
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Python is not slow enough. You can now give people a collection of bits that will run python even slower on multiple architectures. As a bonus, you cannot use any of the C packages like numpy or pandas that might cause it to run faster.
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Does it work with tkinter? So I can have a GUI for every OS in a single executable ?
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Not yet, because Tk itself hasn't been ported to Cosmopolitan Libc yet.
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Has anybody managed to compile the executable?
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Yes. I initially ran into binfmt_misc issues, did a bit of reading on Justine's github repo for Cosmopolitan and found it can be an issue, especially if you have WINE installed. Once I disabled it systemctl stop systemd-binfmt" on Manjaro
I just followed the directions. build/bootstrap/make.com -j$(nproc) o//third_party/python/python.com
I tested it on Win10, MacOS Monterey, and Linux Manjaro (built on MacOS and Linux), all worked on all platforms.
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Fits on every usb drive lol
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Request to change the title to "Python is Actually Portable", as the blog post describes what I did to port Python 2.7/3.6 to Cosmopolitan Libc.Edit: thank you @dang! That was super fast!
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Agreed. "actually portable" carries special significance in the context of αcτµαlly pδrταblε εxεcµταblε.
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is there some background as to why it's written with epsilons, etc?
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Not just Greeks - the irritation is portable across all nationalities.
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It’s a rabbit hole once you go through that link :)
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I can't help but feel this will be either a useless toy or an absolutely horrific malicious software injector.
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I wanted Python to work across at least Windows/Linux because I have a bunch of these tiny scripts that I keep running everywhere. (For example, I always use python.com -m http.server when I want to share files in the local network without SSH). Cosmopolitan Libc made it easy for me to run my scripts across Linux/Windows and more, and the running scripts can be accessed via a browser GUI, which makes it very convenient if someone not use to CLI has to monitor what is going on. Plus I can update my scripts any time by just adding them to the executable via a zip command.Toys are still fun to play with :)
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Downvote, eh? Okay then.> Cosmopolitan Libc does come with some tradeoffs as well
> (static compilation, C codebases, no multithreading
> (Update 2022-07-27:, no multithreading yet,
> the pthreads API takes a while to fill Toy. > Regarding python packages with C extensions, the build
> process for adding them to the APE is rather unwieldy
> (2022-07-27 adding C extensions to the APE is much more
> elegant now because of the Cosmopolitan monorepo Horrific malware. Unchecked C (even libsafe) is bad. Edit: Nevermind that each app using this software will need to be individually updated every time a new security patch for Python comes out.
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The downvotes are because you're not really adding anything (I think). This just reads as empty complaining. You have an edited-in point that isn't widely seen as an issue (it is the case, but why do you think it's bad?). That makes it tedious to read, not very stimulating.
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while you aren't wrong, this is exactly the same as any statically built software (e.g. all of go) and people still build software this way.
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This APE format is not "write once run anywhere", because it targets a specific architectrure (64-bit x86) and won't run on other architectures. Just a toy format and I see no use for it.What we need instead is better support in Linux for legacy Linux and Windows applications so that Linux could run any proprietary software written for it or for Windows (because there are no sources for it and it cannot be recompiled). Today it is not so: for example, very old Firefox builds don't run or crash on modern Linux.
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> This APE format is not "write once run anywhere", because it targets a specific architectrure (64-bit x86) and won't run on other architectures.> What we need instead is better support in Linux for legacy Linux and Windows applications (...) Today it is not so: for example, very old Firefox builds don't run or crash on modern Linux. But that is the exact reason why "legacy Linux and Windows" doesn't work, and why APE works: you should target the "specific architectrure" directly instead of hopefully trusting that the entire underlying system is a completly static target. That or using containers/shim layers, those of course bringing such entire underlying system with them.
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We should just go back to the good old days and ship custom operating systems with our applications. Then you can just boot to them and be sure the underlying system is what you want.
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APE also supports metal (BIOS MBR) as a target.
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I agree. Plus it's only relevant for very simple (in terms of API usage) CLI programs. Good luck compiling a Qt app with this for example.I think WASM is a much more promising avenue for true cross platform executables. You don't have the architecture issue and aren't using weird old formats. It has some way to go though.
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> Just a toy format and I see no use for it.Can you see how the problem that you described in the subsequent paragraph could easily be solved if the applications were compiled in such a format?
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They wouldn't be solved because the problem is that newer versions of shared libraries are not compatible with older applications. There is no problem with ELF or PE formats - ELF is supported on Linux natively, and PE is supported using Wine.APE format doesn't solve the problem with shared libraries changing over time, it dosn't solve the problem that different plaforms provide different APIs (for example, windowing APIs, audio APIs etc).
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> APE format doesn't solve the problem with shared libraries changing over timeAPE doesn't use shared libraries at all and it's intended to be statically linked? > APE (...) dosn't solve the problem that different plaforms provide different APIs APE provides the most important POSIX APIs (or shims) for every platform it supports.
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